Solar electric
 

I'm in the process of setting up a 2kw solar panel sytem at my house ( 2,000 watts). From the preliminary figures I've done, I'm figuring 5 hours of full sun on the panels or 10kw/hrs generated per day....or about 3600kw/hrs per year.

My goal is to be able to run two of my 3 freezers that I "think" take about 1000kw/hrs a year + a small refrigerator that I haven't bought yet, but will take about 500 more. That would leave us about 2000 kw/hrs per year for lights and any other uses.....about 5kw/hrs per day. That means we could still run plenty of lighting ( say 20 flourescent bulbs at 25 watts each for 4 hrs/day= 2kw/hr ) + still have some for a few convenience items...or some cushion if I'm way off in my guesstimate of generation.

I'll post pics and details about it when I get it up and running.....hopefully by Spring.

One thing I got on the way is a "Kill-a-watt" meter so I can closer guestimate the actual usage of each appliance I plan to connect.

http://www.weemscreeksolutions.com/i...a_watt_new.jpg

Cheapest place I found them "to me" (with shipping) was:

http://www.weemscreeksolutions.com/KillAWatt.htm

Re: Solar electric
 

:cool1: Andy...bought a KAW about 2 years ago.

Pretty neat and accurate for testing all the juice my appliances suck out of the wall sockets.

Once you learn how to reverse engineer the math to arrive at actual power consumption you can isolate the hog appliances pretty quick.

Probably know this already,but I will pass it along for the tree huggers:

W=VxA,or
V=W/A,or
A=W/V

Where W is power in watts;
V is volts;and A is amps.

Good show...have fun...make sure the panels have reverse current blocking diodes built in....otherwise you're going to need some monster schottky diodes and heat sinks for that much wattage.

Keep us posted...

:coolbeer:

Re: Solar electric
 

You've certainly got the right idea, Andy. Producing some or all of one's electricity ought to be at least a distant goal for anyone with a little foresight nowadays. Solar is getting more cost effective, but still not within reach for a lot of people. I'd like to do it myself but more than likely will decide to go with wood gas generation. Just too many damned projects to do. Anyway, it sounds like you'll be happy with that system. Good luck with it!

Re: Solar electric
 

Bought a couple new panels and a bigger charge controller ....... and I thought I was spending the big bux ....




.

Re: Solar electric
 

From the first website you list, talking on the merits of these bulbs:

"And finally�

Led is much easier to spell than either incandescent or fluorescent."



ahahahaaaaaaaa.....isn't THAT the truth !

I bought a couple of this in the 120v version from Crane Co that can go in a regular lamp socket. They are ok.....but you'd have to have several of them to equal the light output of a 16watt flourescent bulb, IMHO. The ones listed for track lites and floods look interesting....I'd like to try a few of them.

Wife bought me a little cheapy "hurricane lantern" deal for Christmas present.....it has 5 LED's in it, and you wind it up for a minute, and it produces light for an hour.....actually, it produces SOME light all night....I wound it Christmas night, and just left it sitting on the kitchen counter.....it was still running enough the next morning that you could see it was on....from ONE minute of cranking !

http://www.beallsflorida.com/graphic...001-yy-yyy.jpg

Re: Solar electric
 

Yeah.....I figure I'll have 15k or so in 2kw system time it's all said and done.....only redeeming factor I can see is the IRS is paying 4K of it via the tax credit for 2006/2007.

Re: Solar electric
 

All this stuff is the latest technology, but I still wonder why there isn't more of a push to get this into the new home market.

Talk about a boost for a sliding sales sheet.

They could probably reduce the copper by 50% to distribute those LED lighting systems.

Seems like this stuff would easily pay for itself in under 5 years.

Especially with all the sun inbetween the chemtrails in the southwest area.

Tellin ya I'm very close to getting into this market soon. I'm serious.

If only I could get an upstart loan from B of A. And I knew what I was doing.:haha:

Re: Solar electric
 

This is a picture of one of the cooler boxes we put up in Mt. Charleston.

8" reinforced concrete wall.

Re: Solar electric
 

You're saying 2KW, and betting for 5 hours of full sunlight a day, or the equivalent of that. Are you figuring in the losses due to non-perpendicular sunlight, or will the array rotate to keep the sun directly on the panels? This sounds right for your latitude (assuming 2KW nominal, in a fixed installation)but I don't know how the calculations work.

I think the efficiency drops off radically about 15 degrees from the normal to the collecting surface, but I know little about the practical, rubber-meets-road, side of these installations.

You are correct about the advantage of LEDs over incandescent & fluorescent lamps.

Re: Solar electric
 

My solar experiment is on RV wheels (30 foot bunkhouse model) with a few Arco panels and a couple Shell Solar panels on the roof, a solar bathroom vent fan, four 6 volt golf cart batteries and a 1200 watt (2400 watt surge) inverter. I used welding cables for the inverter hook up. A homebuilt 5 hp Briggs/60 amp Delco charger is the standby generator.

My lighting is 120 vac flourescent mixed with 12 vdc incandescent. I'm looking into the use of dc CCFL (cold cathode flourescent lighting) it blows away led lighting. Will have to retrofit it to existing fixtures.


.

Re: Solar electric
 

Halo,

In my experience - (with sailboats) - welding cable is frowned upon for use in a vibrating environment like RVs or sailboats because it is rigid, and will eventually crack - sometimes unnoticeably reducing your output.

stranded, tinned, 2 guage or 4 guage (or bigger) would be better if you care to ever change it or are upgrading.

Some of the coolest and most well researched solar stuff out there is made for the marine environment - although most of it is not cheap.

For charge controllers and amp/voltage meters though, everyone should check out Blue Sky Energy. They man. Solar Boost products which use Power Point Tracking tech. to increase the amps from your panels. Their products are about the same price as other charge controllers, etc..., but you get the extra juice, which is usually equivalent to 15-20%

However you get into it though, there's a lot to be said for the satisfaction of watching your amp/h meter move up and up with the sun, while those panels dump power into your batteries.:cool3:

GLTA

Re: Solar electric
 

Thanks for the CCFL link, very much appreciated.

Re: Solar electric
 

Andy,

Lemme save you some pain.

I own 16 Siemens 75 watt panels Pc4jf. These are wired in 2 arrays configured to produce 24v. The yield is 600 watts per hour in full sun regulated at 27.5 volts.

Also have 2 Trace 4024 inverters stacked. These are intertied with storage battery and grid. The house runs on an 8000 watt draw from 12 Trojan L16 batteries, with a surge potential of 20,000+ watts. Not really all that much at 125 volts A/C.

I don't know your setup, but.... If you are calculating the 12v cumulative yield on the panels you intend to buy; think again. My array is/was about 85 feet from my disconnect/inverter/charge controller/ battery site. I had to use 0000 cable to minimize voltage drop from the arrays to the charge controllers. That is about the largest non-industrial cable available. I cannot imagine what it costs to buy now with copper so expensive.

I would go 48v configuration with my array, maybe 60 if it is available. Just to be able to use easier to handle cabling from my array.

My battery holds about 25KW of power. I had everything tied into my home breaker box with a sub panel handling 75 Amps. We ran a large refrigerator and 10cu ft freezer, computers and home lighting and electronics. Everything else was propane. The electric heat pump was on another meter altogether. Just maybe your house is small enough to have a compressor that 20,000 watts would surge and kick over, our 3 ton unit would not.

If you are going to go solar, you need to think in terms of your requirements.
Producing 2,000 watts per hour in terms of usable current (125vac) takes 40 panels IF your panels were delivering 100 watts each and you are configured for 24volts DC. 2kw/hour in 24volts delivers about 20 amps at 125 volts A/C.

You are talking a helluva lot of money to run your whole house, unless you are very energy efficient, and are set up with alternative fuel appliances.

If you only get 5 hours per day full sunlight, up there in TN, it might not ever pay you back. Maybe you have a Due South exposure, and will get more hours of sunlight than you estimate? If you get any wind at all, regularly over 12mph at your place; especially at night, I urge you to consider Wind Generators also.

SunFrost appliances might be worth owning. Do you have direct sun or a heat source near your refigerator or freezer? If so you need to move them. Can you insulate them further? You will want to do it. Likely, you can put them on timers. No need to run them at night. A freezer will easily maintain even if run only every other day. As long as it is not regularly opened routinely during every day, and is kept FULL.

SunFrost appliances are 12, 24, maybe 36 volt DC; and as such draw the least possible load from your battery. There are propane appliances also. Servel come to mind and also the RV type gear which can be encased for household use.

You will also need a decent genset and maybe a quality battery charger to maintain your battery on days the sun doesn't cooperate.

I did my entire installation. It is not rocket science, but you might want to buy the Electrica Code book and begin getting familiar with terms like ampacity and disconnect. Every appliance in your house has a current rating. Add them all up. See what you are now using. Look at your electric coop bill. How many kilowatts do you use a month?

We found that the fluorescent light socket bulbs were very acceptable and since they draw about 10% of what incandescent bulbs do, and last a long time; they helped us keep our battery charge-state high.

Better be sure you understand you don't want your battery to drop much below 40% of peak power. Lots of your storage you will never use; or you will need A LOT of excess capacity.

If you lived somewhere that it cost $300 per foot to bring electric service in, the sure; go for it. Why pay $25K just to have a bill the rest of your life? But if you already have power service, just look to solar as a survival tool.

I would go for real heavy duty gear, in terms of inverters, Trace/Xantrex (the heavy units), Heart is another. Have about 4-8 panels you can deploy easily and a decent battery comprised of L-16 or golfcart batteries. You'll need a charge controller but probably not a disconnect system. A large fused single throw switch should work. If you have Southerly facing windows you might even consider keeping your panels inside where they are easily deployed during an emergency.

Proper grounding is a real must, and all gear should be tied-together with a proper grounding rod. Everything has to be grounded.

If you have a large woodlot, you might consider some form of steam engine coupled to a generator. Maybe you have a creek with good flowing water? Small hydro plants are also out there.

In my opinion, solar panels are a real expensive way to charge batteries, especially if you only get 5 hours per day of direct sunlight.

Good luck with your project. If you have the extra $$$, and are committed to self-sufficiency, Alternative Energy is a great investment and source of peace of mind.

Re: Solar electric
 

Andy, good luck from here too. I'd like to do something similar to what you are planning when I've actually bought some property. Will be reading your experiences with interest!

The mention of water turbines is a good one, I think. There seems to be generally less recognition of these than solar/wind, but if you have running water, they are a great, constant source of power.

Attachment 22267

http://www.absak.com/catalog/product.../products_id/3

Ampair's 100 watt Aquair UW water generator is a very durable, versatile solution for home or marine hydroelectric power. The forward facing 3 bladed propeller drives a permanent magnet alternator producing up to 8 Amps output current for a 12 volt system.

$1300

Re: Solar electric
 

Money_matters makes many good points.

The most important probably being.

DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRYING TO GO ALL SOLAR UNTIL YOU ADDRESS YOUR APPLIANCES FIRST!!!

You are not going to be successful trying to power your run of the mill refrigerator or freezer or heat pump, etc.....

You will spend far too much in extra PV cells, wiring, inverters, etc.... to make that inefficient crap work.

Again, look to the boating community for the most advanced technology in this field.

Build your own refrigerator using at least 6 inches of foam - top loading - and there are units out there that will keep your food NICE and COLD for no more than 20 amp/hours a day. That's nothing in the scheme of things.

Freezers will use a bit more. AC and heat will up the ante considerably.

There are massive amounts of info on the net about how to do this, but the moral is - Reduce your energy requirements first - then build your system around those numbers.

Re: Solar electric
 

My land yacht is a lot easier to power up with its LP fridge, LP HWT and 12volt fuse panel.

But it ain't gonna run the AC unit. Got a bunch of mainframe 12 volt computer fans for a breeze ....

Microwave and vacuum cleaner run off the inverter.

I just want enough 12 volt power to run all the lights, laptop, radio equipment and water pump.

Its my SHTF power system.

.

Re: Solar electric
 

Halo,

Sounds like you're in good shape.

One other thing to consider,

If your RV is diesel (or even gas, I guess)

a high output alternator can really make a difference when you find yourself running the motor to charge the batteries.

Also, it's nice to have because even if you're just driving a short way, for an hour or so, you can be sure that your battery bank will be topped off when you get there, thus leaving less responsibility for your alt. energy producers.

There are shops in many boating towns that will rebuild your current alternator with new components, or you can certainly order one.

Just be sure to get the regulation right via external regulator or built in.

GL

Re: Solar electric
 

Nice place!! :applause_ I am going to build with ICF's in the future. Very energy efficient and by adding other green features energy cost could be very low or nill if you have alternative energy production.

Here is a good ICF website explaining the construction and virtues.

http://www.icfhomes.com/

Re: Solar electric
 

Its just a big coach, this is my battery charger.

Re: Solar electric
 

when my dad lived at his gold mine he had the creek nearby rigged up with a water wheel and it gave them at least 800 watts of electricity for the 3 people that camped out there... so, if you have water running through your land, thats the method I would use.

dry creek in summer = use solar power
cloudy days in winter = water turbine

Re: Solar electric
 

Thanks MM, I know you put a LOT into that post and I do appreciate it for sure. That was an EXCELLENT post.

I'll PM you, and Halo later for some advice since you've suffered thru it !

Couple things I'll mention......I'll be doing my own install as well.....I'm a State licensed electrician among other things here in Tennessee.

The "5 hour" deal was me figuring most conservatively to allow for cloudy days as well as sunny. These panels will be mounted on a south facing slope above my house that on a sunny day gets a lot more than 5 hours, but as I said, I was trying to average in cloudy days as well. I'd love to be able to report back in a year and say that worked out to 6 or 7 hours per day....but I'm not counting on it.

I'll be using 12 of the Solarworld ( was Shell ) 175 watt 24v panels, for a total of 2100 watts nominal rating.

The panels will be within just a few feet of the inverters and batteries.....I'm building a 'power house' viturally right under the panel mounting.


My goal with this is not anywhere like total self sufficiency on energy......my goal is to replace about 1/3 of the 900-1000 kw/hrs per month we use now ( and have for 30 years )......AND if the SHTF, I would have enough capacity for some refrigeration, a few lights, and other things where electricity is hard to beat. All the 'convenience' appliances like ANYthing with electric heat elements ( dryer, stove, will be replaced by propane in the short run and wood in the long run ), computer, tv, electric alarm clocks (ahahahaa) would be in the trash heap....I just want enough to remember what the 20th century was about....refrigeration and lights......and my wife votes for a clothes washer :D


In addition to the fed tax credit for 06 and 07, we have a local TVA deal here that they will pay 15 cents per kilowatt hour for everything a residence produces grid tied from "green" sources ( solar, wind, hydro )....and that is right at twice what we pay for electric Kwhrs.....so in effect, we double up on energy savings.....not just what we avoid paying by direct production, but that much again in rebated amounts.

Re: Solar electric
 

Here's a handful of .22 bullets Joey. Don't come back until there is a hole in every solar panel next door. Maybe then that jerk will sell us some of his food.

:smokin:

Re: Solar electric
 

Knowing Andy, kind of, I'd say if that guy has no food and a 22 he's on the wrong side of the fight. Probably doesn't have much ammo either. And aint too smart.

Classic case of bring it on. My money is on Andy.

Re: Solar electric
 

No better COME AND GET IT sign wtshtf than an array of solar panels.

:smile: just playing devil's advocate here in the real world...the zombies will see the panels

Re: Solar electric
 

Uh, without going into details about my location, the 'zombies' will first have to actually GET into this valley ( and plan is in place to stop that ), past a couple of OP's, then up one particular holler to even see my panels. Somewhere between the first OP and the resulting firefight, they will have to choose the correct holler to come up to see my panels. The panels will be much easier to spot if the zombies have a forward air observer.

and hey....as a fellow asked me once ...isn't this getting the thread "off topic" ?

Re: Solar electric
 

:Sorry: my humble apologies Andy

Re: Solar electric
 

Andy,

If you can intertie with the grid and sell your production, you may be better off w/AE than PMs. Just kidding, sort of...

If you have decent prevailing winds at your site, the windcharger mode will outperform the solar panels. Our wind here is very irregular, but I have thought of buying a couple of small windmachines just to catch the extra production when it would otherwise be lost. One mill costs about the same as what I paid for the pc4jfs.

I have no familiarity with the solarworld brand. I was considering investing some more $$$ in AE gear last year, but aside from picking up a niceTrace 230v 55hz inverter on Ebay for a song, have done nothing more. My gear is all in storage, except the battery which I maintain and keep charged.

When I mounted my panels, I used 2" angle iron to frame them in groups of 4. We didn't use a tracker, just oriented them at 30deg due South. All was well.

I would caution you on placing your battery in an unheated and irregularly visited site. A storage battery will lose capacity as the temperature declines, and if you place your gear in a spot that is not easily/regularly monitored you may have problems that will go undetected. If your battery is not conveniently inspected, you will begin to take if for granted once everything has been operating smoothly for 6 weeks or so. Our battery was in the garage. We had a few leakage incidents and other maintenance issues, but because we parked the autos right there, I would routinely do a visual everytime I walked by. You will need to keep distilled water on hand, to top off the losses from gassing etc. Unless you are going with a sealed or gel cell unit.

Good luck with your project!

Re: Solar electric
 

Matt,

Yeah....the 2 for 1 kwhr deal is one reason for doing this now. Took a couple years to get our local power board to get on the TVA bandwagon....they had the option of going with it or not....but finally came around.

The panel I'm using is the Solar World 24v 175 watt job.....Solar World used to be Shell.....name changed.

Here are the specs: http://store.altenergystore.com/Sola...r-Panel/p1082/

I bought a whole pallet of 12 panels for right at 800 bucks/panel.

Unless these "organic" paint on the roof solar electric deals ACTUALLY COME TO MARKET, I've got a feeling conventional silicon cells are not going to get much cheaper due to demand and shortage cost of materials to make them. I've waited years and years for that fabled "50 cents a watt solar cell" to make it's debut, and looks like they bottomed out around 4.50/watt and never got below that....and are now on the rise again.


My batteries and inverter will be located in a "house" that will eventually be part of a greenhouse below the panel racks....so they will be in a reasonably warm environment, and able to be seen frequently. I do plan to use 'standard' lead acid batteries ( like the Trojan ), so gassing and maintenance will be an issue.

Re: Solar electric
 

another interesting micro-hydro solution:

...opportunity to generate up to 2.4kWh per day from any 400mm deep (15") fast flowing stream. When the stream flows at 8-knots (7mph; 15kph) the UW100 will produce 8 amps continuously, and when the stream flows at 6-knots (5mph; 10kph) it will still produce 1.5kWh per day.

the unit alone is about $1500, so around a buck a watt, less if you have fast running water. i think 2 of those would cover what i envision, 3kwh per day should cover freezer, washing machine, cooking etc. in a sensibly planned house.

not try to hijack this thread with micro-hydro :offtopic:

Re: Solar electric
 

No....it's an Excellent point....if you have the water source

Micro hydro is the cheapest per watt ( just like BIG OLE HYDRO )

Wind comes in second

Solar comes in a distant third.

Unfortuately, my water sources are minimal.....though I am considering a seasonal source out my back door.....but it would only be an occassional deal.

My wind source is also minimal....our prevailing wind is west to east here, and my property is backed up against a mountain, and lies on the east/south slope of that mountain. We are well sheltered against most wind by it, but I can sure hear it howl across the top of the mountain at times....unfortunately, that is 1/2 mile upslope, and no good place up there to raise a tower that would need to be high enough to clear the timber.

That leaves me with solar.

You work with what you have.

Re: Solar electric
 

Good thread. I am working on a project to get my well pump to operate on solar power. I have most of the parts now and just need to wire them up. I am starting small, but I figure I want to be as self-sufficient as possible with my water supply first. That means getting the pump off the grid. I could have elected to keep a generator on stand-by, but then I would have to buy gas. Also not enough hydro and wind power available here for that route.

The pump is 3/4 horse and draws about 11 amps so about 1300 watts. Start-up draw is twice that. Had to get a pure sine inverter because it will power a motor. It only runs for a couple of minutes a few times a day, so plenty of time to re-charge batteries in between.

I have about $600 in the project right now, but not being at the mercy of the electric company for water is priceless. A lifetime of free water is worth an ounce of gold to me.

Re: Solar electric
 

Dave, something I read a long time ago, and I am certainly no expert: positive displacement pumps are far more efficient than others. See if you can find an old piston pump somewhere. Maybe?

Re: Solar electric
 

i didn't know that hydro was cheapest. now that i do, it gives me more reason to buy land with running water on it.

Re: Solar electric
 

sounds really nice. what sort of cost per acre is land around you? can you grow food on it, given that it's mountainous? i read that farmland prices in the US are on the up, despite the real estate crash.

Re: Solar electric
 

Can you grow food.....some.....enough to support yourself, but it's definitely NOT wheat country. Land prices here are fairly ridiculous at 6k/ac and up. Shift down to middle Tennessee and it drops by 2/3's.

Re: Solar electric
 

expensive! i've seen cheaper land here in scandinavia, although granted the cheapest tends to be in places where it snows 11 months of the year. i wonder about latin america and africa as bug out spots, and to that end have had a (brief) look at farmland in argentina, which i think was in the $500 per acre region for not prime land but ok land.

edit: just spotted 500 acres in uganda at $60 per acre

Re: Solar electric
 

This was a great thread...Tn...Andy, how is your solar project turning out?

Re: Solar electric
 

Got my panels in.....waiting on some other components. I've decided I'm going to build a greenhouse and mount the panels to a part of the roof of it, and use part of the inside for battery storage.....so the greenhouse has to come first.


It's always something......

Re: Solar electric
 

BTW, what kind of charge controller are you going to use ?

Mine's homemade.

.

Re: Solar electric
 

LOve to see the pic, but it doens't show.

I figured one of those Outback MPPT jobs.

Re: Solar electric
 

PWM halo? Or constant V or I...? Love to know, do they charge deep cycle wet lead acid? Nice heatsink, you could almost use it on re-entry for the space shuttle..:haha: How many watts?

Re: Solar electric
 

Uganda, the garden spot of Africa. I wouldn't want to live there in good times let alone when TSHTF!

Is your pump 110 volt?
Mine is 220 volt but I have an 8kw genny.

Re: Solar electric
 

Just and hour ago I finished purchasing my second 30Watt 12V panel and 'felt-up' that water turbine Uranian posted.

Congrads Andy but with rough costs being $10 per Watt for a solar system, $20,000 I choose not to spend. Where I am on the 49th, in winter I'll only get the equivalent of 1 hour full output a day (41/2 hours in summer).

Currently, my long-term back-up plan involves, crank/solar radio and LED lights and AAA-D cell and 9V battery power for all else I will need such as security, two-way radios, laptop, and whu.

Thus with 100watts I can charge NickelMetalHydride batteries with a $30.00 battery charger.

Total less than $1000. A good start.

Re: Solar electric
 

bought 20W pannel for approx. AU$120 a year ago and today they are AU$240, maybe I got a good deal i dunno, I would've picked up two if there was another...I love my PV, it provides about 1 amp in full sun and I get that most of the year!!! It does get hot and efficiancy will start to drop off over 60 degrees C. If you love living in the present without having to worry about the future buy PV's today, you will see what i mean. Even when the power goes out you are plugged in, that kind of empowerment is very hard to resist and ultimatly somewhat addictive.

Re: Solar electric
 

The plate on the pump says it works on 110 or 220. I am using 110. I think it draws more amps that way. I have a 7kw genny, but I don't want to count on hydrocarbons in the future to get my water out of the ground. I have all the parts for the solar project except the batteries now. But not much sun in New England this time of year, so I moved it down a couple notches on the project list.

Re: Solar electric
 

Yes 110 V will consume double the current at 220 V, provided there is no swich for either source. V=IR, in this instance, an inductive load's current (ie: an inductive motor) will lag the voltage by some ammount so to correct this a capacitor is placed parallel with the load (ie: across it) to maximise the power factor.... lim 0 --> 1.0 where 1.0 = unity; both current and voltage are in phase

If there was one calculation i would do it would be to work out the power factor of the pump under load..and replace the capacitor if it is below 0.8, running a pump at a power factor of 0.4 will almost double your current requirements.:beer:

Re: Solar electric
 

PWM, can handle 1 kw.

Re: Solar electric
 

how long til the zero point energy systems are on general release, that's what i'd like to know. just heard an interview with nick cook (an aerospace/defence journalist who takes an interest in anti-grav craft, such as the TR-3B), who met someone who had produced a solid-state device that produced a few hundred watts a couple of years ago. SEASpower are working towards the same, as are loads of others.